Women, Men and Leadership: Resources for Continuing the Conversation
Photo by Desola Lanre-Ologun on Unsplash
You have to be living under a rock — or at least off all forms of social media — not to know that Barbie, one of several highly anticipated movies released this summer, was an instant blockbuster, achieving a buzz as worthy as the iconic doll herself. Hailed for being as frivolously fun as it is thought provoking, the movie, in all its quirky weirdness, serves as a reminder that being human is more than outward appearance, what our occupation is, or adhering to socially constructed norms. The movie has inspired conversation — both in print and in person — about its set, design, plot, and actors, to say nothing of the conflicted feelings viewers have confronted for watching it.
And, while we might wish that our conversations debriefing a movie about a childhood toy could simply be nostalgic, many of us know this conversation is all too necessary. Barbieland, in spite of its pink hues, is not utopia. It is reminiscent — though a flipped version — of our own world in which leadership and power dynamics are skewed, unequally shared between men and women. As long as we understand one another according to socially constructed norms and stereotypes, rather than the unique gifting and calling placed on our lives by the One who made us, we perpetuate artificial power differentials. To neglect or refuse to acknowledge that each one of us is fearfully and wonderfully made is to diminish both ourselves and one another.
It’s a daring conversation to have and one I had the privilege of facilitating this spring with my seminary students teaching a class on women in leadership and the Wesleyan tradition. It was designed to help students — whether male or female — examine biblical texts, their denominational statements, and the testimonies throughout the ages. Another goal was to help them think through their convictions and experiences of what it means to reflect the imago Dei as leaders of the church. We talked about calling and vocation and how growing in God’s grace and knowledge of Christ through the power of the Holy Spirit equips us for every good work — faithful discipleship — at every stage of the journey, and not just for their own salvation, but to minister to others for the good of the Kingdom. We dealt head on with the realities many of them face as women in positions of leadership and authority. Why does the liberating message each of us experiences as a forgiven and reconciled child of God become trammeled by those who believe women can’t lead simply because of gender? How do we — as men and women together — bear witness to the scriptures that tell us humanity is made male and female to reflect God’s image (Genesis 1:27)? How do we bear witness to the truth that God has poured his Spirit on all flesh, allowing men and women to prophesy (Joel 2:28, Acts 2:17)? Furthermore, how do we view one another as image bearers in light of the fact that in Christ there is no societal division regardless of race, status, or gender (Galatians 3:28)?
The conversation is complicated, but it is a conversation worth having. No doubt, there are problematic passages in scripture. And despite careful and nuanced consideration and exegesis by some of the most renowned biblical scholars, these passages are still used to dismiss anyone supporting egalitarian viewpoints. One is reminded of the adage that a text without context is just a pretext for whatever your detractors want it to mean.
As their professor, I was immediately impressed by the way these students — male and female — engaged each other in conversation. Some came expectant and eager while others were more cautious and trepidatious. They demonstrated conviction tempered by sensitivity and openness to learning from the material and one another. They shared their discomfort around the term “feminist,” which is perceived as threatening in many circles in which they travel. And yet, they expressed both surprise and appreciation to realize noted male theologians readily embraced the term to affirm and show their support for women sharing leadership, even as the term “egalitarian” came into vogue to describe the beliefs that men and women can share leadership roles in church, society, and the home. They were intrigued to discover that the first rise of feminism in the 19th century was ecclesial and theological in nature, essentially paving the way to more familiar secular and civil movements for voting privileges and equal pay. They realized that history is as complicated as the biblical text. John Wesley wouldn’t necessarily embrace the term feminist or egalitarian even though in the original list he drew up of 66 leaders in the Wesleyan movement, 47 of them named were women. Though several of them always knew, on some level, that the Methodist/Wesleyan movement affirmed the leadership and ordination of women, they know representation today is skewed.
They learned that sometimes the best way to work through the ambiguities and conundrums of the biblical text and history might not be arguing someone around to your viewpoint, but to let God lead and allow the Spirit within one’s life to speak on your behalf. For all their examination of texts and theological treatises, it was the witness and testimonies from both the pages of church history and the podcasts of their contemporaries that seemed to speak most helpfully to their own experience. In reading letters and journals of early Methodists, they realized they shared much in common with Mary Bosanquet Fletcher, Amanda Berry Smith, and Jarena Lee. They were emboldened and energized to speak with and ask questions of Rev. Jo Anne Lyon and Dr. Shirley Mullen, two guest panelists to the class who shared from their lifetime of experiences. And I listened to my students as they made recommendations based on conversations they listened to — podcasts —as to what they found most enriching, edifying, enlightening, and encouraging for them in their various roles and ministries.
For those of you wanting to join the conversation about biblical equality in which men and women lead the church together, please check out the recommended list of podcasts from my students below. Their choices were ranked and compiled into a single list. Please note that not all are explicitly Wesleyan in viewpoint and themes discussed are indicated in italics after the show’s information. Please further note that seeing the Barbie movie is not required (or even necessary) to carry on an informed conversation about biblical equality, though it may provide the opportunity to engage in a conversation worth having.
Women Were Made Strong w/ Jo Saxton. Season 07 Episode 08 of the Right Side Up Podcast with Danielle Strickland and James Sholl. Explores biblical texts, call, and vocation.
This episode was named a favorite for its deep dive into scripture. The conversation focuses on the second creation narrative and various ways the English Bible has translated ezer or “helper.” Jo Saxton unpacks how it has often been unhelpfully translated in the passage, neglecting the fullness and richness of the original word throughout the rest of the biblical text. The conversation is passionate and lively. It challenges us to go back to the scriptures with which we think we are familiar and look again. It’s a reminder that revelation comes at different stages and places. This is a great podcast for boosting confidence and enthusiasm.
Women in Authority in the Early Church with Dr. Nijay Gupta of Mutuality Matters, a podcast of CBE International. Explores biblical texts, egalitarian themes of leadership.
Dr. Gupta contributes to the podcast’s conversation in its historical look at women who helped lead the early Church. He discusses some of the influential women named in New Testament passages such as Lydia, Nympha, Phoebe, Priscilla, and Junia, and examines how Jesus interacted with women. Just as women of wealth and status were instrumental in leading the early church, women of lower societal rank were noticed and seen by Jesus. For example, the woman who washed his feet was told by Christ that her story would be told throughout history. This podcast is recommended as an overview of these women and as a catalyst possibly to begin your own deeper study into the women of the Bible, specifically the New Testament.
Leading As a Woman, Feminine Sensitivity, and Next Gen Leadership. Episode 112 of We’re Going There with Bianca Juarez Olthoff. Explores testimonies and experiences of contemporary women in leadership.
This podcast features a conversation among three women, encouraging other women to embrace their God-given gifts and abilities. It digs into some of the hard realities of ministry, asking great questions while providing encouragement, inspiration, and practical examples. The hosts share their own testimonies of how they never considered stepping into ministry because of their gender, but were finally convinced to do so and found that they were equipped and able to fulfill the call to ministry on their lives. Their testimonies are relatable to anyone who has discerned a call but shied away from it or have felt the unrealistic pressures we put on ourselves as women. An open and vulnerable conversation that doesn’t shy away from what it can be like to be a female in church leadership, it encourages women to step into their call and lead by example so others women and girls can see that it is okay for a woman to be in leadership.
Women in Ministry Part 1 and Part 2 with Danielle Freed, episodes 028 and 029 of Spirit Anointed Leadership with Chris Conrad. Explores testimony and experience within the Wesleyan tradition.
The two-part podcast interview features Chris Conrad (District Superintendent of the Great Lakes Region of the Wesleyan Church) and Danielle Freed. It explores the realities women face in ministry, their challenges, and Danielle's story of both the support she has received and the challenges she has faced as an ordained minister. Topics covered include the gap between male and female lead pastors in the Wesleyan Church, lack of professional development and networking opportunities for female pastors, and men's fear of working with female colleagues. Highly recommended by several students, it stood out for the male member of the class for its insight that as part of a clergy couple, his wife has voiced several of the same concerns and frustrations. His takeaway? Holding women to the same standard as men without providing the same tools to reach the standard is unfair. Realizing this, his commitment is to promote the need for greater access to leadership development for his female colleagues.
Why Emotional Intelligence Matters in the Church with Dr. Irini Fambro from Women in Ministry Leadership Podcast hosted by Dr. Rhonda Davis, Julie Cole. December 2022. Explores leadership roles and experiences.
Though students recognized that the viewpoints expressed lean more towards complementarian than egalitarian ideals, this podcast was cited for its practical takeaways. It discusses the different kinds of intelligences and how they play out in the context of a church. Dr. Fambro explores important aspects of leadership and how both women and men contribute to the direction of an organization. She refutes the idea that, for women, living into their calling to be leaders comes at the cost of men and emphasizes ways for men and women successfully to work together.
From Complementarian to Egalitarian: A Conversation about Women in Leadership with Dr. Nijay Gupta. Theology in the Raw with Preston Sprinkle, Season 2, Episode 1066. Personal testimony and biblical interpretation.
In this podcast, Preston Sprinkle has a candid and hard conversation with New Testament scholar Dr. Nijay Gupta about his most recent book, Tell Her Story. In it, he provides solid scriptural exegesis for women’s leadership roles even as he shares his own personal journey from one who did not support women in ministry to becoming egalitarian as a result of his studies in seminary. The podcast highlights some of the things that helped Gupta to become a proponent of women in ministry, and the importance of women in the church. The podcast is recommended because it is honest and allows for vulnerability.
Managing Leadership Anxiety: Yours and Theirs, with Ruth Haley Barton and Steve Cuss, a podcast conversation carried both on Cuss’ podcast sponsored by Missioalliance as Episode 138 and Barton’s Strengthening the Soul of Your Leadership podcast from The Transforming Center, Season 16 episode 2 May 2002. Leadership insights and supports for both men and women.
This series of episodes features a conversation between Ruth Haley Barton and Steve Cress that was originally conceived as an interview for Barton’s Transforming Center but was shared with MissioAlliance as the interview took shape. Both Barton and Cress are recognized authorities on leadership, with their own podcast platforms designed to offer insights for ministry leaders to be equipped and understand the various dynamics they encounter. If you are serious about investing in yourself as a leader, it is entirely possible you’ll find yourself subscribing to both podcasts as a result of listening to these episodes.
A Conversation with Rev. Dr. Jo Anne Lyon. The Art of Holiness with Carolyn Moore and Pierce Drake, August 19, 2022. Offers personal testimony, support for leaders from a Wesleyan viewpoint.
This conversation hosted by Carolyn Moore, (author of When Women Lead) and Pierce Drake features Rev. Dr. Jo Anne Lyon, General Superintendent Emerita of The Wesleyan Church, who now serves as Ambassador in recognition of her considerable connections and influence within the worldwide church. Their conversation moves through a variety of topics including joining the movement of God in the world, the Billy Graham Rule, the importance of mentoring, representation in leadership, and missional communities.
Self-Denying Love for Female Leaders in a Wesleyan Theology of Leadership with Rev. Deanna Hayden and Rev. Dr. Julie Cheney. The Wynkoop Center for Women in Leadership at Nazarene Theological Seminary; March 2023. Historical insight, leadership insights, and Wesleyan theology.
This is actually a webinar sponsored by the Wynkoop Center for Women in Leadership, this discussion of leadership through the lens of Wesleyan leadership explores how self-denial can be understood theologically as a mark of faithful discipleship, but can be easily weaponized and used against women leaders. Offering a solid review of John Wesley’s theology and approach to leadership, the discussion explores how self-denial can be practiced in a way that is healthy and life-giving as well as offering an understanding of how those who are abused, oppressed or in problematic contexts can be discerning and engage in life-affirming practices designed to help them live and lead with confidence.
Goodbye Ideal Biblical Woman Rewind. Episode 74 of Jackie Always Unplugged podcast, sponsored by The Marcella Project, August 31, 2022. Explores biblical texts and contemporary experience.
Rev. Dr. Jackie Roese addresses unhelpful stereotypes women deal with in the church and the world. The podcast explores who men and women are as children of God and how gender bias problematizes relationships for both genders. It is recommended for its willingness to uncover social biases that have gotten in the way of allowing women to live into their God-given potential and debunking the myth of an ideal biblical woman.
An Interview with Dr. Shirley Mullen, President of Houghton College, Unpacks Discovering Personal Calling and Ambition, Defeating Fear, and Empowering Others to Reach their Full Potential. Season 1 Episode 2 of The Kingdoms Podcast with Luke Crawford and Matthew Maw. February 12, 2021. Explores calling, vocation, and the Wesleyan tradition.
Now President Emerita of Houghton, this conversation featuring Shirley Mullen is an example of what an egalitarian conversation between men and women sounds like. Sought out by the podcast hosts for her wisdom and insights gained over the decades of teaching and leading in Christian higher education, the topics covered are deeply informed by a Wesleyan soteriology of what it means to grow in grace and understanding of God while pursuing the call placed on each of our lives.
Tammie Grimm is Professor of Congregational Formation at Wesley Seminary in Marion, Indiana and a member of Firebrand’s Editorial Board.